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Kallistos Ware on Religion, Science & Technology

This interview with Kallistos Ware took place in Oxford, England, on October 20, 2014. The interview was transcribed by Katina Michael and adapted again in Oxford, on October 18, 2016, by Metropolitan Kallistos in preparation for it to appear in print. MG Michael predominantly prepared the questions that framed the interview.

Biography

Born Timothy Ware in Bath, Somerset, England, Metropolitan Kallistos was educated at Westminster School (to which he had won a scholarship) and Magdalen College, Oxford, where he took a Double First in Classics as well as reading Theology. In 1966 Kallistos became a lecturer at the University of Oxford, teaching Eastern Orthodox Studies, a position he held for 35 years until his retirement. In 1979, he was appointed to a Fellowship at Pembroke College, Oxford.

Do You Differentiate between the Terms Science and Technology? And is there a Difference between the Terms in Your Eyes?

Science, as I understand it, is the attempt systematically to examine reality. So in that way, you can have many different kinds of science. Physical science is involved in studying the physical structure of the universe. Human science is examining human beings. Thus the aim of science, as I understand it, is truth. Indeed, the Latin term scientia means knowledge. So, then, science is an attempt through the use of our reasoning brain to understand the world in which we live, and the world that exists within us. Technology, as I interpret it, means applying science in practical ways, producing particular kinds of machines or gadgets that people can use. So science provides the basis for technology.

What Does Religion have to Say on Matters of Science and Technology?

I would not call religion a science, though some people do, because religion relies not simply on the use of our reasoning brain but it depends also on God's revelation. So religion is based usually on a sacred book of some kind. If you are a Christian that means the Bible, the Old and New Testaments. If you are a Muslim, then the Old Testament and the Quran.

So science as such does not appeal to any outside revelation, it is an examination of the empirical facts before us. But in the case of religion, we do not rely solely on our reasoning brain but on what God has revealed to us, through Scripture and in the case of an Orthodox Christian, through Scripture and Tradition. Technology, is something we would wish to judge in the light of our religious beliefs. Not all of the things that are possible for us to do applying our scientific knowledge are necessarily good. Technology by itself cannot supply us with the ethical standards that we wish to apply. So then religion is something by which we assess the value or otherwise of technology.

Could We Go Insofar as Saying that Science and Religion Could be in Conflict? Or at Least is there a Point Where they Might Become Incompatible One with the Other?

I do not believe that there is a fundamental conflict between science and religion. God has given us a reasoning brain, he has given us faculties by which we can collect and organize evidence. Therefore, fundamentally all truth is from God. But there might be particular ways of using science which on religious grounds we would think wrong. So there is not a fundamental conflict, but perhaps in practice a certain clash. Problems can arise when, from the point of view of religion, we try to answer questions which are not strictly scientific. It can arise when scientists go beyond the examination of evidence and form value judgements which perhaps could conflict with religion. I would see conflict arising, not so much from science as such in the pursuit of truth, but from scientism, by which I mean the view that methods of scientific enquiry necessarily answer all the questions that we may wish to raise. There may be areas where science cannot give us the answer. For example, do we survive death? Is there a future life? That is to me a religious question. And I do not think that our faith in a future life can be proved from science, nor do I think it can be disproved by science. Equally, if we say God created the world, we are making a religious statement that in my view cannot be proved or disproved by science. So religion and science are both pursuing truth but on different levels and by different methods.

Are there Any Principles or Examples in the Judeo-Christian Tradition Which Point to the Uses and Abuses of Technology?

One precious element in the Judeo-Christian tradition is respect for the human person. We believe as Christians that every person is of infinite value in God's sight. Each person is unique. God expects from each one of us something that he doesn't expect from anyone else. We are not just repetitive stereotypes. We are each made in the image and likeness of God, and we realize that likeness and image, each in our own way. Humans are unique basically because we possess freedom. Therefore we make choices. And these choices which are personal to each one of us determine what kind of person we are. Now, any technology which diminishes our personhood, which degrades us as humans, this I see as wrong. For example, to interfere with people's brains by medical experimentation, I would see as wrong. Medicine that aims to enable our bodies and our minds to function correctly, that clearly I would see as good. But experiments that have been done by different governments in the 20th century, whether by Communism or in Nazi Germany, that I would see as an abuse of technology because it does not show proper respect for the integrity of the human person. So this would be my great test - how far technology is undermining our personhood? Clearly our freedom has to be limited because we have to respect the freedom of other people. And therefore, much of politics consists of a delicate balancing of one freedom against another. But technology should be used always to enhance our freedom, not to obliterate it.

How did the Ancient World Generally Understand and Practice Technology?

Interpreting technology in the broadest possible sense, I would consider that you cannot have a civilized human life without some form of technology. If you choose to live in a house that you have built yourself or somebody else has built for you, instead of living in a cave, already that implies a use of technology. If you wear clothes woven of linen, instead of sheepskins or goatskins, that again is a use of technology. In that sense, technology is not something modern, it came into existence as soon as people began using fire and cooking meals for themselves, for example. Clearly, the amount of technology that existed in the ancient world was far less than what we have today. And most of the technological changes have come, I suppose, in the last 200 years: the ability to travel by railway, by car, and then by plane; the ability to use telephones and now to communicate through the Internet. All of this is a modern development. Therefore we have an elaboration of technology, far greater than ever existed in the ancient world. That brings both advantages and risks. We can travel easily and communicate by all kinds of new means. This in itself gives us the opportunity to do far more, but the advantages are not automatic. Always it is a question of how we use technology. Why do we travel quickly from place to place? What is our aim? When we communicate with the Internet, what is it that we are wishing to communicate to one another? So value judgements come in as to how we use technology. That we should use it seems to me fully in accordance with Christian tradition. But the more complex technology becomes, the more we can do through technology, the more questions are raised whether it is right to do these things. So we have a greater responsibility than ever people had in the ancient world, and we are seeing the dangers of misuse of our technology, in for example the pollution of the environment. For the most part the ecological crisis is due to the wrong use of our technological skills. We should not give up using those skills, but we do need to think much more carefully how and why we are using them.

In What Ways has Technology Impacted Upon Our Practice of Religion? Is there Anything Positive Coming from this?

One positive gain from technology is clearly the greater ease by which we can communicate. We can share our ideas far more readily. A huge advance came in the fifteenth century with the invention of printing. You no longer had to write everything out by hand, you could produce things in thousands of copies. And now of course a whole revolution that has come in through the use of computers, which again renders communication far easier. But once more we are challenged: we are given greater power through these technological advances, but how are we going to use this power? We possess today a knowledge that earlier generations did not possess, quantitative, information, technological, and scientific facts that earlier ages did not have. But though we have greater knowledge today, it is a question whether we have greater wisdom. Wisdom goes beyond knowledge, and the right use of knowledge has become much more difficult. To give an example from bioethics: We can now interfere in the processes of birth in a way that was not possible in the past. I am by no means an expert here, but I am told that it is possible or soon will be for parents to choose the sex of their children. But we have to ask: Is it desirable? Is it right, from a Christian point of view that we should interfere in the mystery of birth in this way? My answer is that parents should not be allowed to choose the sex of their child. This is going beyond our proper human responsibility. This is something that we should leave in the hands of God, and I fear that there could be grave social problems if we started choosing whether we would have sons or daughters. There are societies where girls are regarded as inferior, and in due course there might arise a grave imbalance between the sexes. That is just one illustration of how technology makes things possible, but we as Christians on the basis of the teaching of the church have certain moral standards, which say this is possible but is not the right thing to do. Technology in itself, indeed science in itself, cannot tell us what is right or wrong. We go beyond technology, and beyond the strict methods of science, when we begin to express value judgements. And where do our values come from? They come from our religious belief.

How are We to Understand the Idea of Being Created in the “Image and Likeness” of God in the Pursuit of the Highest Levels and Trajectories of Technology?

There is no single interpretation in the Christian tradition of what is meant by the creation of the human person according to the image and likeness of God. But a very widespread approach, found for example among many of the Greek fathers, is to make a distinction between these two terms. Image on this approach denotes the basic human faculties that we are given; those things which make us to be human beings, the capacities that are conferred on every human. The image is as it were, our starting point, the initial equipment that we are all of us given. The likeness is seen as the end point. The likeness means the human person in communion with God, living a life of holiness. Likeness means sanctity. The true human being on this approach is the saint. We humans, then, are travellers, pilgrims, on a journey from the image to the likeness. We should think of the human nature in dynamic terms. Fundamental to our personhood is the element of growth. Now, the image then means that we possess the power of rational thinking, the power of speech, articulate language with which we can communicate with others; it means therefore reason in the broadest sense. More fundamentally, it means that we humans have a conscience, a sense of right or wrong, that we make moral decisions. Most fundamentally of all, the image means that we humans have God-awareness, the possibility to relate to God, to enter into communion with him through prayer. And this to me is the basic meaning of the image, that we humans are created to relate to God. There is a direction, an orientation in our humanness. We are not simply autonomous. The human being considered without any relationship to God is not truly human. Without God we are only subhuman. So the image gives us the potentiality to be in communion with God, and that is our true nature. We are created to live in fellowship and in communion with God the Creator. So the image means you cannot consider human beings simply in isolation, as self-contained and self-dependent but you have to look at our relationship with God. Only then will you understand what it is to be human.

At What Point Would Theologians or Ethicists Reckon we Have Crossed the Line from Responsible Innovation and Scientific Enquiry over into “Hubris”?

As a Christian theologian, I would not wish to impose, as if from a higher authority, limits on scientific enquiry. As I said earlier, God has given us the power to understand the world around us. All truth comes from him. Christ is present in scientific enquiry, even if his name is not mentioned. Therefore, I do not seek in a theoretical way to say to the scientist: Thus far and no further. The scientist, using the methods of enquiry that he has developed, should continue his work unimpeded. One cannot say that any subject is forbidden for us to look at. But there is then the question: how do we apply our scientific knowledge? Hubris comes in when scientists go beyond their proper discipline and try to dictate how we are to live our lives. Morality does not depend solely on scientific facts. We get our values, if we are Christians, from our faith. Modern science is an honest enquiry into the truth. So long as that is the case, we should say to the scientist: please continue with your work. You are not talking about God, but God is present in what you are doing, whether you recognize that or not. Hubris comes in when the scientist thinks he can answer all the questions about human life. Hubris comes in when we think we can simply develop our technology without enquiring: is this a good or bad application of science?

Is that Well-Known Story of the Tower of Babel from the Book of Genesis 11:1-9 at all Relevant with its Dual Reference to “Hubris” and “Engineering”?

Yes, that is an interesting way of looking at the story of the Tower of Babel. The story of the Tower of Babel is basically a way of trying to understand why it is that we humans speak so many different languages and find such difficulty in communicating with one another. But underlying the story of Babel exactly is an overconfidence in our human powers. In the story of the Tower of Babel, the people think that they can build a tower that will reach from earth to heaven. By the power of engineering they think they can bridge the gap between the human and the divine. And this exactly would be attributing to technology, to our faculty for engineering, something that lies beyond technology and beyond engineering. Once you are moving from the realm of factual reality to the realm of heaven, then you are moving into a different realm where we no longer depend simply on our own powers of enquiry and our own ability to apply science. So exactly, the story of the Tower of Babel is a story of humans thinking they have unlimited power, and particularly an unlimited power to unite the earthly with the heavenly, whereas such unity can only come through a recognition of our dependence on God.

Why Cannot or Should We Not Explore and Innovate, and Go as Far as is Humanly Possible with Respect to Innovation, if We Carry the Seed of God's Creative Genius within Us?

Yes, we carry the seed of God's creative genius within us, but on the Christian world view we humans are fallen beings and we live in a fallen world. Now, how the fall is interpreted in Christian tradition can vary, but underlying all understandings of the fall is the idea that the world that we live in has in some way or another gone wrong. There is a tragic discrepancy between God's purpose and our present situation. As fallen human beings, therefore, we have to submit our projects to the judgement of God. We have to ask, not only whether this is possible but whether this is in accordance with the will of God. That obviously is not a scientific or technological question. It is not a question of what is possible but of what is right. Of course, it is true that many people do not believe in God, and therefore would not accept what I just said about this being a fallen world. Nevertheless they too, even those who have no belief in God, have to apply a moral understanding to science and technology. I hope they would do this by reflecting on the meaning of what it is to be human, on the value of personhood. And I believe that in this field it is possible, for Christians and non-Christians, for believers and unbelievers, to find a large measure of common ground. At the same time, we cannot fully understand our limitations as fallen human beings without reference to our faith. So the cooperation with the non-believer only extends to a certain limited degree.

Can a Particular Technology, for Instance Hardware or Software, be Viewed as Being “Immoral”?

One answer might be to say technology is not in itself moral or immoral. Technology simply tells us what is possible for us to do. Therefore, it is the use we make of technology that brings us to the question of whether a thing is moral or immoral. On the other hand, I would want to go further than that, to say that certain forms of technology might in themselves involve a misuse of humans or animals. I have grave reservations, for example, about experiments on animals by dissection. Many of the things that are done in this field fail to show a proper respect for the animals as God's creation. So, it is not perhaps just the application of technology that can be wrong but the actual technology itself, if it involves a wrong use of living creatures, humans or animals. Again, a technology that involves widespread destruction of natural resources, that pollutes the world round us, that too, I would say in itself is wrong, regardless of what this technology is being used for. Often it must be a question of balancing one thing against another. All technology is going to affect people, one way or another. But there comes a point where the effect is unacceptable because it is making this world more difficult for other humans to live in. It is making the world unsuitable for future generations to survive within. Thus, one cannot make a sharp distinction between the technology in itself and how we apply it. Perhaps the technology itself may involve a wrongful use of humans, animals, or natural things; wrongful because it makes the world somehow less pleasant and less healthy for us to live in.

Is Religious Faith in Any Way Threatened by Technology?

If we assume a scientific approach, that assumes that humans are simply elaborate machines, and if we develop technologies which work on that basis, I do think that is a threat to our religious faith, because of my belief in the dignity and value of the human person. We are not simply machines. We have been given free will. We have the possibility to communicate with God. So in assuming that the human being is merely a machine, we are going far beyond the actual facts of science, far beyond the empirical application of technology, since this is an assumption with deep religious implications. Thus there can be conflict when science and technology go beyond their proper limits, and when they do not show respect for our personhood.

Can Technology Itself become the New Religion in its Quest for Singularitarianism - the Belief in a Technological Singularity, where we are Ultimately Becoming Machines?

Yes. If we assume that science and technology, taken together, can answer every question and solve every problem, that would be making them into a new religion, and a religion that I reject. But science and technology do not have to take that path. As before, I would emphasize we have to respect certain limits, and these limits do not come simply from science or technology. We have, that is to say, to respect certain limits on our human action. We can, for example, by technology, bring people's lives to an end. Indeed, today increasingly we hear arguments to justify euthanasia. I am not at all happy about that as a Christian. I believe that our life is in God's hands and we should not decide when to end it, still less should we decide when to end other people's lives. Here, then, is a very obvious use of technology, of medical knowledge, where I feel we are overstepping the proper limits because we are taking into our hands that which essentially belongs to God.

Can You Comment on the Modern Day Quest toward Transhumanism or what is Now Referred to as Posthumanism?

I do not know exactly what is meant by posthumanism. I see the human person as the crown and fulfilment of God's creation. Humans have uniqueness because they alone are made in the image and likeness of God. Could there be a further development in the process of evolution, whereby some living being would come into existence, that was created but on a higher level than us humans? This is a question that we cannot really answer. But from the religious point of view, speaking in terms of my faith as a Christian, I find it difficult to accept the idea that human beings might be transcended by some new kind of living creature. I note that in our Christian tradition we believe that God has become human in Christ Jesus. The second person of the Trinity entered into our human life by taking up the fullness of our human nature into Himself. I see the incarnation as a kind of limit that we cannot surpass and that will not be superseded. And so I do not find it helpful to speculate about anything beyond our human life as we have it now. But we are not omniscient. All I would say is that it will get us nowhere if we try to speculate about something that would transcend human nature. The only way we can transcend human nature is by entering ever more fully into communion with God, but we do not thereby cease to be human. Whether God has further plans of which we know nothing, we cannot say. I can only say that, within the perspective of human life as we know it, I cannot see the possibility of going beyond the incarnation of Christ.

Is Human Enhancement or Bodily Amplification an Acceptable Practice When Considered against Medical Prosthesis?

Human enhancement and bodily amplification are acceptable if their purpose is to enable our human personhood to function in a true and balanced way but if we use them to make us into something different from what we truly are, then surely they are not. Of course that raises the question of acceptable, what we truly are. Here the answer, as I have already said comes not from science but from our religious faith.

What if Consciousness Could Ever be Downloaded through Concepts Such as “Brain in a Vat”?

[Sigh]. I become deeply uneasy when such things are suggested, basically because it undermines the fullness of our personhood. Anything that degrades living persons into impersonal machines is surely to be rejected and opposed.

In the Opposite Vein, What if Machines Were to Achieve Fully Fledged Artificial Intelligence through Advancement?

When I spoke of what it means for humans to be created in God's image, I mentioned as the deepest aspect of this that we have God-awareness. There is as it were in our human nature a God-shaped hole which only He can fill. Now perhaps robots, automatic machines, can solve intellectual problems, can develop methods of rational thought, but do such machines have a sense of right or wrong? Still more, do such machines have an awareness of God? I think not.

What is so Unique about Our Spirit Which We Cannot Imbue Or Suggest into Future Humanoid Machines?

The uniqueness of the human person for me is closely linked with our possession of a sense of awe and wonder, a sense of the sacred, a sense of the divine presence. As human beings we have an impulse within us that leads us to pray. Indeed, prayer is our true nature as humans. Only in prayer do we become fully ourselves. And to the qualities that I just mentioned, awe, wonder, a sense of the sacred, I would add a sense of love. Through loving other humans, through loving the animals, and loving God, we become ourselves, we become truly human. Without love we are not human. Now, a machine however subtle does not feel love, does not pray, does not have a sense of the sacred, a sense of awe and wonder. To me these are human qualities that no machine, however elaborate, would be able to reproduce. You may love your computer but your computer does not love you.

Where Does Christianity Stand on Organ Donation and Matters Related to Human Transplantation? Are there Any Guidelines in the Bioethics Domain?

In assessing such questions as organ donations, heart transplants, and the like, my criterion is: do these interventions help the human person in question to lead a full and balanced human life? If organ transplants and the like enhance our life, enable us to be more fully ourselves, to function properly as human beings, then I consider that these interventions are justified. So, the question basically is: is the intervention life enhancing?

That would bring me to another point. As Christians we see this life as a preparation for the life beyond death. We believe that the life after death will be far fuller and far more wonderful than our life is at present. We believe that all that is best in our human experience, as we now know it, will be reaffirmed on a far higher level after our death. Since the present life is in this way a preparation for a life that is fuller and more authentic, then our aim as Christians is not simply to prolong life as long as we can.

Can You Comment on One's Choice to Sustain Life through the Use of Modern Medical Processes?

The question therefore arises about the quality of life that we secure through these medical processes. For example, I recall when my grandmother was 96, the doctors suggested that various things could be done to continue to keep her alive. I asked how much longer will they keep her alive and the answer was, well perhaps a few months, perhaps a year. And when I discovered that this meant that she would always have various machines inserted into her that would be pumping things into her, I felt this is not the quality of life that I wish her to have. She had lived for 96 years. She had lived a full and active life. I felt, should she not be allowed to die in peace without all this machinery interfering in her. If on the other hand, it were a question of an organ transplant, that I could give to somebody who was half her age, and if that afforded a prospect that they might live for many years to come, with a full and active existence, then that would be very different. So my question would always be, not just the prolonging of life but the quality of the life that would be so prolonged. I do not, however, see any basic religious objection to organ transplants, even to heart transplants. As long as the personality is not being basically tampered with, I see a place for these operations. Do we wish to accept such transplants? That is a personal decision which each one is entitled to make.

ACKNOWLEDGMENT

This interview transcript has previously been published by the University of Wollongong, Australia.

IEEE Keywords: Interviews, Cognition, Education, Standards, Internet, Technological innovation, Ethics

Citation: M.G. Michael, Katina Michael, "Religion, Science, and Technology: An Interview with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware", IEEE Technology and Society Magazine, 2017, Volume: 36, Issue: 1, pp. 20 - 26, DOI: 10.1109/MTS.2017.2654283.

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Dan DeFilippi: It was December 2004 in Rochester, New York. I was sitting in my windowless office getting work done, and all of a sudden the door burst open, and this rush of people came flying in. “Get down under your desks. Show your hands. Hands where I can see them.” And before I could tell what was going on, my hands were cuffed behind my back and it was over. That was the end of that chapter of my life.

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Dan DeFilippi: My first experience with money in this field was towards the end of my high school. And I realized that my electronics skills could be put to use to do something beyond work. I got involved with a small group of hackers that were trying to cheat advertising systems out of money, and I didn’t even make that much. I made a couple of hundred dollars over, like, a year or something. It was pretty much insignificant. But it was that experience, that first step, that kind of showed me that there was something else out there. And at that time I knew theft and fraud was wrong. I mean, I thought it was stealing. I knew it was stealing. But it spiraled downwards after that point.

Katina Michael: Can you elaborate on how your thinking developed towards earn­ing money through cybercrime?

Dan DeFilippi: I started out with these little things and they slowly, slowly built up and built up and built up, and it was this easy money. So this initial taste of being able to make small amounts, and eventually large amounts of money with almost no work, and doing things that I really enjoyed doing was what did it for me. So from there, I went to college and I didn’t get involved with credit card fraud right away. What I did was, I tried to find a market. And I’ve always been an entrepreneur and very business-minded, and I was at school and I said, “What do people here need? ... I need money, I don’t really want to work for somebody else, I don’t like that.” I realized people needed fake IDs. So I started selling fake IDs to college students. And that again was a taste of easy money. It was work but it wasn’t hard work. And from there, there’s a cross-over here between forged documents and fraud. So that cross-over is what drew me in. I saw these other people doing credit card fraud and mak­ing money. I mean, we’re talking about serious money. We’re talking about thousands of dollars a day with only a few hours of work and up.

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Dan DeFilippi: And where were my ethics and morals? Well, the problem is when you do something like this, you need to rationalize it, okay? You can’t worry about it. You have to rationalize it to yourself. So everybody out there commit­ting fraud rationalizes what they’re doing. They justify it. And that’s just how our brains work. Okay? And this is something that comes up a lot on these online fraud forums where people discuss this stuff openly. And the question is posed: “Well, why do you do this? What motivates you? Why, why is this fine with you? Why are you not, you know, opposed to this?” And often, and the biggest thing I see, is like, you know, the Robin Hood scenario- “I’m just stealing from a faceless corporation. It’s victimless.” Of course, all of us know that’s just not true. It impacts the consumers. But everybody comes up with their own reason. Everybody comes up with an explanation for why they’re doing it, and how it’s okay with them, and how they can actually get away with doing it.

Katina Michael: But how does a sensitive young man like you just not realize the impact they were having on others during the time of committing the crimes?

Dan DeFilippi: I’ve never really talked about that too much before... Look the aver­age person when they know they’ve acted against their morals feels they have done wrong; it’s an emotional connection with their failure and emotionally it feels negative. You feel that you did something wrong no one has to tell you the crime type, you just know it is bad. Well, when you start doing these kinds of crimes, you lose that discerning voice in your head. I was completely dis­connected from my emotions when it came to these types of fraud. I knew that they were ethically wrong, morally wrong, and you know, I have no interest in committing them ever again, but I did not have that visceral reaction to this type of crime. I did not have that guilty feeling of actually stealing something. I would just rationalize it.

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Dan DeFilippi: This is a pretty common question and honestly I don’t have an answer. I can tell you how much I owe the government and that’s ... well, I suppose I owe Discover Card ... I owed $209,000 to Discover Card Credit Card Company in the US. Beyond that, I mean, I didn’t keep track. One of the things I did was, and this is kind of why I got away with it for so long, is I didn’t go crazy. I wasn’t out there every day buying ten laptops. I could have but chose not to. I could’ve worked myself to the bone and made millions of dollars, but I knew if I did that the risk would be significantly higher. So I took it easy. I was going out and doing this stuff one or two days a week, and just living comfortably but not really in major luxury. So honestly, I don’t have a real figure for that. I can just tell you what the government said.

Katina Michael: There is a perception among the community that credit card fraud is sort of a non-violent crime because the “actor” being defrauded is not a person but an organization. Is this why so many people lie to the tax office, for instance?

Dan DeFilippi: Yeah, I do think that’s absolutely true. If we are honest about it, everyone has lied about something in their lifetime. And people... you’re right, you’re absolutely right, that people observe this, and they don’t see it in the big picture. They think of it on the individual level, like I said, and people see this as a faceless corporation, “Oh, they can afford it.” You know, “no big deal”. You know, “Whatever, they’re ripping off the little guy.” You know. People see it that way, and they explain it away much easier than, you know, somebody going off and punching someone in the face and then proceeding to steal their wallet. Even if the dollar figure of the financial fraud is much higher, people are generally less concerned. And I think that’s a real problem because it might entice some people into committing these crimes because they are considered “soft”. And if you’re willing to do small things, it’s going to, as in my case, eventually spiral you downwards. I started with very small fraud, and then got larger. Not that everybody would do that. Not that the police officer taking the burger for free from Burger King is going to step up to, you know, to extortion or something, but certainly it could, could definitely snowball and lead to something.

Katina Michael: It has been about 6 years since you were arrested. Has much has changed in the banking sector regarding triggers or detection of cybercriminal acts?

Dan DeFilippi: Yeah. What credit card companies are doing now is pattern match­ing and using software to find and root out these kind of things. I think that’s really key. You know, they recognize patterns of fraud and they flag it and they bring it out. I think using technology to your advantage to identify these patterns of fraud and investigate, report and root them out is probably, you know, one of the best techniques for dollar returns.

Katina Michael: How long were you actually working for the US Secret Service, as a matter of interest? Was it the length of your alleged, or so-called prison term, or how did that work?

Dan DeFilippi: No. So I was arrested early December 2004. I started working with the Secret Service in April 2005, so about six months later. And I worked with them fulltime almost for two years. I cut back on the hours a little bit towards the end, because I went back to university. But it was, it was almost exactly two years, and most of it was fulltime.

Katina Michael: I’ve heard that the US is tougher on cybercrime relative to other crimes. Is this true?

Dan DeFilippi: The punishment for credit card fraud is eight-and-a-half years in the US.

Katina Michael: Do these sentences reduce the likelihood that someone might get caught up in this kind of fraud?

Dan DeFilippi: It’s a contested topic that’s been hotly debated for a long time. And also in ethics, you know, it’s certainly an interesting topic as well. But I think it depends on the type of person. I wasn’t a hardened criminal, I wasn’t the fella down on the street, I was just a kid playing around at first that just got more serious and serious as time went on. You know, I had a great upbring­ing, I had good morals. And I think to that type of person, it does have an impact. I think that somebody who has a bright future, or could have a bright future, and could throw it all away for a couple of hundred thousand dollars, or whatever, they recognize that, I think. At least the more intelligent people recognize it in that ... you know, “This is going to ruin my life or potentially ruin a large portion of my life.” So, I think it’s obviously not the only deterrent but it can certainly be useful.

Katina Michael: You note that you worked alone. Was this always the case? Did you recruit people to assist you with the fraud and where did you go to find these people?

Dan DeFilippi: Okay. So I mainly worked alone but I did also work with other people, like I said. I was very careful to protect myself. I knew that if I had partners that I worked with regularly it was high risk. So what I did was on these discussion forums, I often chatted with people beyond just doing the credit card fraud, I did other things as well. I sold fake IDs online. I sold the printed cards online. And because I was doing this, I networked with people, and there were a few cases where I worked with other people. For example, I met somebody online. Could have been law enforcement, I don’t know. I would print them a card, send it to them, they would buy something in the store, they would mail back the item, the thing they bought, and then I would sell them online and we would split the money 50/50.

Katina Michael: Was this the manner you engaged others? An equal split?

Dan DeFilippi: Yes, actually, exactly the same deal for instance, with the person I was working with in person, and that person I met through my fake IDs. When I had been selling the fake IDs, I had a network of people that resold for me at the schools. He was one of the people that had been doing that. And then when he found out that I was going to stop selling IDs, I sort of sold him my equipment and he kind of took over. And then he realized I must have something else going on, because why would I stop doing it, it must be pretty lucrative. So when he knew that, you know, he kept pushing me. “What are you doing? Hey, I want to get involved.” And this and that. So it was that person that I happened to meet in person that in the end was my downfall, so to speak.

Katina Michael: Did anyone, say a close family or friend, know what you were doing?

Dan DeFilippi: Absolutely not. No. And I, I made it a point to not let anyone know what I was doing. I almost made it a game, because I just didn’t tell anybody anything. Well, my family I told I had a job, you know, they didn’t know... but all my friends, I just told them nothing. They would always ask me, you know, “Where do you get your money? Where do you get all this stuff?” and I would just say, “Well, you know, doing stuff.” So it was a mystery. And I kind of enjoyed having this mysterious aura about me. You know. What does this guy do? And nobody ever thought it would be anything illegitimate. Everybody thought I was doing something, you know, my own webs ites, or maybe thought I was doing something like pornography or something. I don’t know. But yeah, I definitely did not tell anybody else. I didn’t want anybody to know.

Katina Michael: What was the most outrageous thing you bought with the money you earned from stolen credit cards?

Dan DeFilippi: More than the money, the outrageous things that I did with the cards is probably the matter. In my case the main motivation was not the money alone, the money was almost valueless to a degree. Anything that anyone could buy with a card in a store, I could get for free. So, this is a mind-set change a fraudster goes through that I didn’t really highlight yet. But money had very little value to me, directly, just because there was so much I could just go out and get for free. So I would just buy stupid random things with these stolen cards. You know, for example, the case where I actually ended up leading to my arrest, we had gone out and we had purchased a laptop before that one that failed, and we bought pizza. You know? So you know, a $10 charge on a stolen credit card for pizza, risking arrest, you know, for, for a pizza. And I would buy stupid stuff like that all the time. And just because I knew it, I had that experience, I could just get away with it mostly.

Katina Michael: You’ve been pretty open with interviews you’ve given. Why?

Dan DeFilippi: It helped me move on and not to keep secrets.

Katina Michael: And on that line of thinking, had you ever met one of your victims? And I don’t mean the credit card company. I actually mean the individual whose credit card you defrauded?

Dan DeFilippi: So I haven’t personally met anyone but I have read statements. So as part of sentencing, the prosecutor solicited statements from victims. And the mind-set is always, “Big faceless corporation, you know, you just call your bank and they just, you know, reverse the charges and no big deal. It takes a little bit of time, but you know, whatever.” And the prosecutor ended up get­ting three or four statements from individuals who actually were impacted by this, and honestly, you know, I felt very upset after reading them. And I do, I still go back and I read them every once in a while. I get this great sinking feeling, that these people were affected by it. So I haven’t actually personally met anyone but just those statements.

Katina Michael: How much of hacking do you think is acting? To me traditional hacking is someone sort of hacking into a website and perhaps downloading some data. However, in your case, there was a physical presence, you walked into the store and confronted real people. It wasn’t all card-not-present fraud where you could be completely anonymous in appearance.

Dan DeFilippi: It was absolutely acting. You know, I haven’t gone into great detail in this interview, but I did hack credit card information and stuff, that’s where I got some of my info. And I did online fraud too. I mean, I would order stuff off websites and things like that. But yeah, the being in the store and playing that role, it was totally acting. It was, like I mentioned, you are playing the part of a normal person. And that normal person can be anybody. You know. You could be a high-roller, or you could just be some college student going to buy a laptop. So it was pure acting. And I like to think that I got reasonably good at it. And I would come up with scenarios. You know, ahead of time. I would think of scenarios. And answers to situations. I came up with techniques that I thought worked pretty well to talk my way out of bad situations. For example, if I was going to go up and purchase something, I might say to the cashier, before they swiped the card, I’d say, “Oh, that came to a lot more than I thought it would be. I hope my card works.” So that way, if something happened where the card was declined or it came up call for authorization, I could say, “Oh yeah, I must not have gotten my payment” or something like that. So, yeah, it was definitely acting.

Katina Michael: You’ve mentioned this idea of downward spiraling. Could you elaborate?

Dan DeFilippi: I think this is partially something that happens and it happens if you’re in this and do this too much. So catching people early on, before this takes effect is important. Now, when you’re trying to catch people involved in this, you have to really think about these kinds of things. Like, why are they doing this? Why are they motivated? And the thought process, like I was saying, is definitely very different. In my case, because I had this hacker background, and I wasn’t, you know, like some street thug who just found a computer. I did it for more than just the money. I mean, it was certainly because of the chal­lenge. It was because I was doing things I knew other people weren’t doing. I was kind of this rogue figure, this rebel. And I was learning at the edge. And especially, if I could learn something, or discover something, some technique, that I thought nobody else was using or very few people were using it, to me that was a rush. I mean, it’s almost like a drug. Except with a drug, with an addict, you’re chasing that “first high” but can’t get back to it, and with credit card fraud, your “high” is always going up. The more money you make, the better it feels. The more challenges you complete, the better you feel.

Katina Michael: You make it sound so easy. That anyone could get into cybercrime. What makes it so easy?

Dan DeFilippi: So really, you’ve got to fill the holes in the systems so they can’t be exploited. What happens is crackers, i.e. criminal hackers, and fraudsters, look for easy access. If there are ten companies that they can target, and your company has weak security, and the other nine have strong security, they’re going after you. Okay? Also, in the reverse. So if your company has strong security and nine others have weak security, well, they’re going to have a field-day with the others and they’re just going to walk past you. You know, they’re just going to skip you and move on to the next target. So you need to patch the holes in your technology and in your organization. I don’t know if you’ve noticed recently, but there’s been all kinds of hacking in the news. The PlayStation network was hacked and a lot of US targets. These are basic things that would have been discovered had they had proper controls in place, or proper security auditing happening.

Katina Michael: Okay, so there is the systems focus of weaknesses. But what about human factor issues?

Dan DeFilippi: So another step to the personnel is training. Training really is key. And I’m going to give you two stories, very similar but with totally different outcomes, that happened to me. So a little bit more about what I used to do frequently. I would mainly print fake credit cards, put stolen data on those cards and use them in store to go and purchase items. Electronics, and things like that, to go and re-sell them. So ... and in these two stories, I was at a big- box well-known electronics retailer, with a card with a matching fake ID. I also made the driver’s licenses to go along with the credit cards. And I was at this first location to purchase a laptop. So pick up your laptop and then go through the standard process. And when committing this type of crime you have to have a certain mindset. So you have to think, “I am not committing a crime. I am not stealing here. I am just a normal consumer purchasing things. So I am just buying a laptop, just like any other person would go into the store and buy a laptop.” So in this first story, I’m in the store, purchasing a laptop. Picked it out, you know, went through the standard process, they went and swiped my card. And it came up with a ‘CFA’ – call for authorization. Now, a call for authorization is a case where it’s flagged on the computer and you actually have to call in and talk to an operator that will then verify additional information to make sure it’s not fraud. If you’re trying to commit fraud, it’s a bad thing. You can’t verify this, right? Right? So this is a case where it’s very possible that you could get caught, so you try to talk your way out of the situation. You try to walk away, you try to get out of it. Well, in this case, I was unable to escape. I was unable to talk my way out of it, and they did the call for authorization. They called in. We had to go up to the front of the store, there was a customer service desk, and they had somebody up there call it in and discuss this with them. And I didn’t overhear what they were saying. I had to stand to the side. About five or ten minutes later, I don’t know, I pretty much lost track of time at that point, they come back to me and they said, “I’m sorry, we can’t complete this transaction because your information doesn’t match the information on the credit card account.” That should have raised red flags. That should have meant the worse alarm bells possible.

Katina Michael: Indeed.

Dan DeFilippi: There should have been security coming up to me immediately. They should have notified higher people in the organization to look into the matter. But rather than doing that, they just came up to me, handed me back my cards and apologized. Poor training. So just like a normal consumer, I act surprised and alarmed and amused. You know, and I kind of talked my way out of this too, “You know, what are you talking about? I have my ID and here’s my card. Obviously this is the real information.” Whatever. They just let me walk out of the store. And I got out of there as quickly as possible. And you know, basically walked away and drove away. Poor training. Had that person had the proper training to understand what was going on and what the situation was, I probably would have been arrested that day. At the very least, there would have been a foot-chase.

Katina Michael: Unbelievable. That was very poor on the side of the cashier. And the other story you were going to share?

Dan DeFilippi: The second story was the opposite experience. The personnel had proper training. Same situation. Different store. Same big-box electronic store at a different place. Go in. And this time I was actually with somebody else, who was working with me at the time. We go in together. I was posing as his friend and he was just purchasing a computer. And this time we, we didn’t really approach it like we normally did. We kind of rushed because we’d been out for a while and we just wanted to leave, so we kind of rushed it faster than a normal person would purchase a computer. Which was unusual, but not a big deal. The person handling the transaction tried to upsell, upsell some things, warranties, accessories, software, and all that stuff, and we just, “No, no, no, we don’t ... we just want to, you know, kind of rush it through.” Which is kind of weird, but okay, it happens.

Katina Michael: I’m sure this would have raised even a little suspicion however.

Dan DeFilippi: So when he went to process the transaction, he asked for the ID with the credit card, which happens at times. But at this point the person I was with started getting a little nervous. He wasn’t as used to it as I was. My biggest thing was I never panicked, no matter what the situation. I always tried to not show nervousness. And so he’s getting nervous. The guy’s checking his ID, swipes the card, okay, finally going to go through this, and call for authorization. Same situation. Except for this time, you have somebody here who’s trying to
do the transaction and he is really, really getting nervous. He’s shifting back and forth. He’s in a cold sweat. He’s fidgeting. Something’s clearly wrong with this transaction. Now, the person who was handling this transaction, the person who was trying to take the card payment and everything, it happened to be the manager of this department store. He happened to be well-trained. He happened to know and realize that something was very wrong here. Something
was not right with this transaction. So the call for authorization came up. Now, again, he had to go to the front of the store. He, he never let that credit card and fake ID out of his hands. He held on to them tight the whole time. There was no way we could have gotten them back. So he goes up to the front and he says, “All right, well, we’re going to do this.” And we said, “Okay, well, we’ll go and look at the stock while you’re doing it.” You know. I just sort of tried to play off, and as soon as he walked away, I said, “We need to get out of here.” And we left; leaving behind the ID and card. Some may not realize it as I am retelling the story, but this is what ended up leading to my arrest. They ran his photo off his ID on the local news network, somebody recognized him, turned him in, and he turned me in. So this was an obvious case of good, proper training. This guy knew how to handle the situation, and he not only prevented that fraud from happening, he prevented that laptop from leaving the store. But he also helped to catch me, and somebody else, and shot down what I was doing. So clearly, you know, failing to train people leads to failure. Okay? You need to have proper training. And you need to be able to handle the situation.

Katina Michael: What did you learn from your time at the Secret Service?

Dan DeFilippi: So a little bit more in-depth on what I observed of cybercriminals when I was working with the Secret Service. Now, this is going to be a little aside here, but it’s relevant. So people are arrogant. You have to be arrogant to commit a crime, at some level. You have to think you can get away with it. You’re not going to do it if you can’t, you know, if you think you’re going to get caught. So there’s arrogance there. And this same arrogance can be used against them. Up until the point where I got caught in the story I just told you that led to my arrest, I was arrogant. I actually wasn’t protecting myself as well as I had been, should have been. Had I been investigated closer, had law enforcement being monitoring me, they could have caught me a lot earlier. I left traces back to my office. I wasn’t very careful with protecting my office, and they could have come back and found me. So you can play off arrogance but also ignorance, obviously. They go hand-in-hand. So the more arrogant somebody is, the more risk they’re willing to take. One of the things we found frequently works to catch people was email. Most people don’t realize that email actually contains the IP address of your computer. This is the identifier on the Internet to distinguish who you are. Even a lot of criminals who are very intelligent, who are involved in this stuff, do not realize that email shows this. And it’s very easy. You just look at the source of the email and boom, there you go. You’ve got somebody’s location. This was used countless times, over and over, to catch people. Now, obviously the real big fish, the people who are really intelligent and really in this, take steps to protect themselves with that, but then those are the people who are supremely arrogant.

Katina Michael: Can you give us a specific example?

Dan DeFilippi: One case that happened a few years ago, let’s call the individual “Ted”. He actually ran a number of these online forums. These are “carding” forums, online discussion boards, where people commit these crimes. And he was extremely arrogant. He was extremely, let’s say, egotistical as well. He was very good at what he did. He was a good cracker, though he got caught multiple times. So he actually ran one of these sites, and it was a large site, and in the process, he even hacked law enforcement computers and found out information about some of these other operations that were going on. Actu­ally outed some, some informants, but the people didn’t believe him. A lot of people didn’t believe him. And his arrogance is really what led to his downfall. Because he was so arrogant he thought that he could get away with everything. He thought that he was protecting himself. And the fact of the matter was, law enforcement knew who he was almost the whole time. They tracked him back using basic techniques just like using email. Actually email was used as part of the evidence, but they actually found him before that. And it was his arrogance that really led to his getting arrested again, because he just didn’t protect himself well enough. And this really I cannot emphasize it enough, but this can really be used against people.

Katina Michael: Do you think that cybercrimes will increase in size and number and impact?

Dan DeFilippi: Financial crime is going up and up. And everybody knows this. The reality is that technology works for criminals as much as it works for businesses. Large organizations just can’t evolve fast enough. They’re slow in comparison to cybercriminals.

Katina Michael: How so?

Dan DeFilippi: A criminal’s going to use any tools they can to commit their crimes. They’re going to stay on top of their game. They’re going to be at the forefront of technology. They’re going to be the ones out there pioneering new tech­niques, finding the holes before anybody else, in new systems to get access to your data. They’re going to be the ones out there, and combining that with the availability of information. When I started hacking back in the ‘90s, it was not easy to learn. You really pretty much had to go into these chat-rooms and become kind of like an apprentice. You had to have people teach you.

Katina Michael: And today?

Dan DeFilippi: Well after the 2000s, when I started doing the identification stuff, there was easier access to data. There were more discussion boards, places where you could learn about these things, and then today it’s super easy to find any of this information. Myself, I actually wrote some tutorials on how to conduct credit card fraud. I wrote, like, a guide to in-store carding. I included how to go about it, what equipment to use, what to purchase, and it’s all out there in the public domain. You don’t even have to understand any of this. You know, you could know nothing about technology, spend a few hours online searching for this stuff, learn how to do it, and order the stuff overnight and the next day you could be out there going and doing this stuff. That’s how easy it is. And that’s why it’s really going up, in my opinion.

Katina Michael: Do you think credit card fraudsters realize the negative conse­quences of their actions?

Dan DeFilippi: People don’t realize that there is a real negative consequence to this nowadays. I’m not sure what the laws are in Australia about identity theft and credit card fraud, but in the United States, it used to be very, very easy to get away with. If you were caught, it would be a slap on the wrist. You would get almost nothing happening to you. It was more like give the money back, and possibly serve jail time if it was a repeat offence, but really that was no deterrent. Then it exploded post dot com crash, then a few years ago, we passed a new law that it’s a mandatory two years in prison if you commit identity theft. And credit card fraud is considered identity theft in the United States. So you’re guaranteed of some time in jail if caught.

Katina Michael: Do you think people are aware of the penalties?

Dan DeFilippi: People don’t realize it. And they think, “Oh, it’s nothing, you know, a slap on the wrist.” There is a need for more awareness, and campaigning on this matter. People need to be aware of the consequences of their actions. Had I realized how much time I could serve for this kind of crime, I probably would have stopped sooner. Long story short, because I worked with the Se­cret Service and trained them for a few years, I managed to keep myself out of prison. Had I not done that, I would have actually been facing eight-and-a-half years. That’s serious, especially for somebody who’s in their early 20s. And really had that happened, my future would have been ruined, I think. I probably would have become a lifelong criminal because prisons are basically teaching institutions for crime. So really I, had I known, had I realized it, I wouldn’t have done it. And I think especially younger people, if they realize that the major consequences to these actions, that they can be caught nowadays, that there are people out there looking to catch them, that really would help cut back on this. Also catching people earlier of course is more ideal. Had I been caught early on, before my mind-set had changed and the emotional ties had been broken, I think I would have definitely stopped before it got this far. It would have made a much bigger impact on me. And that’s it.

The Social Implications of Radio-Frequency IDentification

Good afternoon everyone. My name is William Herbert, and for identification purposes only I am the Deputy Chair of the New York State Public Employment Relations Board. You may be wondering why am I here.  In fact, my scholarship has been involved with issues involving RFID, GPS and other forms of technology, as a legal perspective.  I was asked to moderate, I think partially, this panel because of my background in labour relations, in which we have conflicting views frequently in labour, and my agency’s role is frequently brought in to try to bring some kind of bridges between varying positions on issues, at least in the workplace.  We have over the past two days been very fortunate to hear very diverse viewpoints on the issue of RFID.  And I thought it was appropriate that we try to bring those diverging voices together in seeking to bring some degree of bridging of these different ideas to try to aim towards bringing some degree of harmony about a perspective, or at least the first steps towards that perspective.  As Roger Clarke mentioned earlier in his talk, there is a need for this kind of dialogue and I think this panel will be a very good first step or second step in that process.

So the question I'm going to be asking for the panellists today is: can societies develop a balanced response to radio-frequency identification (RFID)?  And when I use the word RFID, I'm discussing both the technology, not limited to implants, but just the technology itself.  So with that question, I'm going to first ask Roger to discuss whether societies can develop a balanced response to RFID technology.

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DangerousThings - Amal Graafstra Presents at ISTAS10

Public reaction – angry. I get a lot of angry emails, calls, and things like that. There are some people that wish I’d just go away, and there are others claiming that I am somehow helping “the conspiracy”. This is just kind of a little thing that I thought up, about the cycle of fear that I’ve noticed when talking to people. So when people come to me and they’re angry about things, I try to engage them in conversation but usually they’re afraid of misconceptions about the technology. They think that somehow the GPS satellites are communicating with this tag – which really only has a three-inch read range – and somehow reporting my location, “Can’t they track you?” … the elusive “they”.

So you know, they’re afraid of something they’re not sure of and they take action because they’re afraid. Then people that know about it respond, usually poorly. This interaction reveals to the angry people that they really don’t know what it is they’re talking about. And what’s interesting is that they have a new fear then, and that fear causes them not to want to learn about the technology. They don’t want to engage, because they somehow feel that if they learn about it, maybe their fears are unfounded or whatever. But it’s a cycle that repeats quite often. So the concept is that, you know, somehow now your body is up for sale, and companies and governments are vying for it.

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Peter Mahy on S and Marper at ECtHR

Katina Michael interviewed Mr Peter Mahy of Howells LLP who represented S and Marper at the European Court of Human Rights

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Abstract: Mr Peter Mahy, Partner at Howells LLP and the lawyer who represented S & Marper in front of the Grand Chamber at the European Court of Human Rights was interviewed by Katina Michael on the 10th of October 2009 while she was studying towards a Masters of Transnational Crime Prevention in the Faculty of Law at the University of Wollongong. In 2010 Peter Mahy received the Legal Aid Lawyer of the Year award for his contribution to the field. Mahy received his honours law degree from Sheffield University and a Masters in Criminology from the University of Cambridge. He did his Legal Practice Course at the University of Northumbria, Newcastle and joined Howells in 1996, qualifying in 1998.

Keywords: S & Marper v United Kingdom, European Court of Human Rights, DNA, national database, proportionality, government, police, citizens

Katina Michael: Peter, thank you for the opportunity to conduct this interview with you. I will begin by asking you to distinguish between the collection and storage of DNA samples as opposed to DNA profiles? Or do you see both collection types are ‘equal’ in value?

Peter Mahy: I do distinguish between DNA sampling and DNA profiling. And in fact, the UK government is now also distinguishing between DNA samples and profiling, stating in their consultation paper, Keeping the right people on the DNA database, that samples will be destroyed. I think there is a particular distinction in that there is a fear with how samples may be used in the future, and how they might be analysed into the future. However to me personally, I think the collection and storage of DNA profiles as opposed to DNA samples is marginal and that both are of a huge concern.

Katina Michael: So the UK government has now publicly stated that they will destroy all samples on their national database?

Peter Mahy: Yes. So what they are saying now is that the DNA sample will be destroyed once it has been uploaded to a profile.

Katina Michael: Could you make a general comment about the British Police and Criminal Evidence (PACE) Act 1984 and how it has changed since its introduction?

Peter Mahy: So prior to 2001, the UK took the position that if you had your DNA taken on charge then it could be kept but if you were acquitted or the charge was not continued then it had to be destroyed. That was changed in 2001, so that DNA could be retained even after acquittal or if charges were dropped. And then the law again changed so that a DNA sample could be taken just on arrest, not charge. So the PACE in terms of the collection of DNA was significantly watered down.

Katina Michael: Is it true that PACE has been watered down so much that it has been applied to the collection of DNA samples for what society generally considers petty misdeeds? Was DNA collected first for violent crimes alone, and then later due to changes in PACE for minor misdemeanors?

Peter Mahy: So what has happened now, is about police powers with respect to recordable offences. And so every 6-12 months, the notion of what constitutes a recordable offence is redefined, and each time it gets redefined more offences are introduced into PACE, including more lower level crimes. So there has been a widening of the definition on what constitutes a recordable offence, to include more minor offences.

Katina Michael: Some analysts, early on (e.g. Ireland 1989) have argued that PACE did a good job of balancing the right of an accused person against the need for police to have adequate powers for law enforcement. Do you agree? Peter Mahy: I think the problem in the UK is that you see an increasing amount of criminal legislation. There has been 3000 changes to acts of parliament related to criminal legislation since the Labour government has been in, so there has been a creep to the erosion of civil liberties, a hemming in if you like, and so it seems to be a constant battle to keep the rights that were enshrined in PACE and the Human Rights Act.

Katina Michael: Do you see then, that the increase in police authority and powers represents a commensurate loss in the individual rights of UK citizens? Peter Mahy: So I think there is sort of a constant creep against civil liberties, and a constant battle to preserve them. And it is not clear cut. The UK enacted the Human Rights Act which was a massive step forward but that is under threat at the moment. There is a conservative party here that is sayi